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Post subject: Muslims in Subud
 Posted: Feb 16, 2005 - 10:12 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
Posts: 7
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire, England
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Salaams, another newbie question!!! (please tolerate me at least until someone from my local group responds ...) 
I understand that subud is spiritual and extends across the spectrum of believers in God, and I've read the history to know enough about the Islamic connections.
I'm Muslim and I would love to hear from other Muslims...
What's your experience of subud as a practising Muslim, and what's the reaction of your fellow Muslims? I'm from an area where there are 1000s of Muslims, yet I learn that the local subud group is small and somewhat inactive (I'm not blaming the Muslims, just making the connection between a large religious group yet small subud group). How open are you about subud, or do you reserve this as a completely private matter?
ohhh, so many questions
Love
Billy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 17, 2005 - 06:02 PM
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Site Admin
Joined: Jul 14, 2002
Posts: 295
Location: 世界 Shijie
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Hi Billy
I reckon its worth sharing some background to Subud and then what relationship it holds with Islam.
Whilst there is a strong sense of community within Subud world wide, Subud is in many ways a very loose association of people with a shared conception mainly based on the receivings of Bapak or Muhammad Subuh Sumohadiwidjojo. And yet many members do not feel at ease with Bapaks words being anything more than a guide that they consult when they feel moved to do so.
Separate and as a part of this, where Islam is in anyway present in Subud it is present by way of Bapak’s example as a Muslim and the inspiration people draw from that.
As far as any religion within Subud, it is not a given. Each individual member comes to Subud with or without a religious consciousness. Their sense of the right religion for themselves may change or be enriched and attuned by their individual latihans. This can be any kind of religion. Religious practices relevant to one's religion exists separately as well as being wholeheartedly combined with the latihan. In such a way Muslims in Subud do not practice being Muslims but practice the latihan and the content of their soul will reflect its Islamic essence.
Muslims in Subud are varied, some are Muslims because they have felt the dignity and power within Islam, some are probably Muslims because its almost a passing fad as a result of the influences present in Bapaks human legacy. Then there are cultural Muslims, people whose nationality and ethnic background are Islamic just as most Europeans have a Christian socialization and societal culture. I think the third case is probably who you are appealing to in your questions. I cannot share much here because I have no experience of this.
I myself have a Muslim name because my father became a Muslim around 40 years ago, he was motivated by a sincere self-choice and the awareness of the dignity and power of Islam, but also because of the fad that was evident during Bapaks time. I am not active in my attendance of a mosque, however, I don’t drink, nor eat pig and do Ramadan diligently. My Islam is part of a Subud culture that embraces certain Islamic practices and is aware of the spiritual essence within them. To be called a true Muslim I feel I would need to be sincere in my discipline to do my prayers five times a day, to be aware of the value of the content of the Quran and to realize the five pillars of Islam. Forgive me for missing any other attendant requirements. I do my prayers intermittently. Islam is a growing force within my life but not one based on clear conviction as yet. I am only a young man and have a variety of focuses at present.
Subud is not advertised in any direct way and as far as actively going out into the community and talking about Subud the general consensus is not to do such. However, most Subud members actively and happily respond to any person who shows an interest and, fumble out a summary of what Subud means to them and the nature of the latihan when asked in passing. It all depends on the individual any Subud member meets.
As far as Subud Bradford within a large Muslim community like Bradford is concerned, its more a case of being open to the individuals that decide to come towards Subud Bradford, (which I know will be the case for yourself when you meet them). Bradford is fairly symptomatic of the larger North Region (the same is the case for many other regions world wide) of Subud Britain. They are by no means inactive just few in numbers. The reasons for this are many and varied.
I know I haven't directly answered your question about myself and other Muslims in Subud somehow connecting with a Muslim community in everyday Britain or where have you, I believe its not something we do because our religion is a personal and individual thing and could not be representative of Subud or even the latihan that the next person I would meet will receive. Just as Subud exists as an entity of diffuse individuals realising their personal latihans and realising the place of religion within their individual lives.
I hope that is one answer to some of your thoughts.
Regards.
Harun. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 18, 2005 - 10:30 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
Posts: 7
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire, England
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Salaams and thanks Harun, that does answer some of my questions.
I've read quite a lot about how latihan enriches the religious practice of people from different faiths, and that's really where my curiosity arises. Many Muslims (and Christians, and Jews and Hindus and..and..) have what feels like a very closed (fearful?) perspective on their faith, where they will not even raise their eyes beyond certain boundaries (often defined for them by family, community, culture etc). I'm interested to know from Muslims here how they came to subud and how that has affected their practises and beliefs - accepting each person's experience is unique, one still gets a sense of peoples' experiences in hearing from them.
Hmmm, I thought that was quite a simple question, but there don't seem to be many takers! ...and that in itself makes me curious: is being in subud such a very private thing that few talk about what it really means for them? how then is latihan ever really shared beyond those in your immediate lives as being the magnificent gift it strikes me as? and how is that reconciled with sharing and giving to others what we ourselves receive? Ok there is no active "going out and selling subud", but even this space seems fairly quiet...
No offence intended to anyone here; I am genuinely curious... In fact, gonna sit on my hands now in case I type any more questions!
Love and blessings
Billy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 19, 2005 - 12:21 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Brisbane
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Dear Billy,
I had felt to merely send you a personal message but seeing you have really been moved by the latihan (would that more were!) and you asked a good question and Harun gave you a good answer perhaps I should put my two cents in in public.
My personal belief is that Subud is a free gift beyond price to humanity from Almighty God (Allah subhana wa t'ala).
I also believe that my own religion, Islam, provides me with the best framework within which to live my life.
My own reversion to Islam was quite amazing. The ceremony and name fair blew my head off. Unfortunately, I eventually got it back, complete with nonsense thoughts.
I got a tremendous lot out of the Muslim community in Perth, WA where I lived from 1976 to 1989.
Subud's stock amongst these wonderful people plummetted when someone in the local group "explained" testing to them.
From then on they regarded me as a good Muslim who they needed to extract from this evil organisation. Masha Allah!
We are always open to this sort of lunacy affecting our standing in the Muslim community.
I am sure many Subud members have wonderful experiences of what their religion is about. They have often learnt, from bitter experience, to shut up about it in their local groups.
Subud came to the English speaking world from Indonesia via the Gurdjieff site at Coombe Springs. Indonesians tend to be very secretive about their spiritual lives whereas John Bennett was a professional spiritual guru whose books were a source of income to him. But Gurdjieff tends to be very hierarchical and inward looking.
I think, with a lot of Coombe Springers moving on to that Great Latihan in the Sky, we will burst that old wineskin. Masha Allah!
New or younger members like you don't carry that baggage. Masha Allah!
From eight years experience of my local Subud group (Brisbane) and a 36 year sentence (no remissions) to Subud Australia I think Subud, in this country at least, is probably best in its own closet. And, until we have something better to show the world, I sincerely hope it stays that way! I would be ashamed to introduce my friends to the group. Yup, the latihan's wonderful but some of the people ...
But maybe the younger & newer people, like yourselves & Harun ...
I for one certainly hope for change. Short of a bomb under our local latihan hall, which I wouldn't do ...
Be young, be blessed, be yourself.
The future lies with you.
Warmest regards.
As Salaamu Aleikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.
Jazzaz Allah (May God reward you),
Ismail |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 20, 2005 - 06:28 PM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Apr 17, 2003
Posts: 161
Location: Britain
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Hi kallibilly!
I think a lot, if not most, of the Muslims in Subud, outside Indonesia, converted to Islam after being opened in Subud, as a result of testing. That was the case with my father, and as a result I was born a Muslim in Subud.
The main problem Subud muslims have in relation to non-Subud Muslims, is, in my experiance, that in the outside world pious muslims can be very dogmatic and imam oriantated, and tend to see any claim to be able to recieve the difference between right and wrong directly from God to be herasy.
I think this is a problem generally with integrating ourselves into the culture of organised religions. It is hard to tell preists or imams that we think, nay, we know we understand better than them what their own religion is about. Much better to just sit quitely at the back of the congregation and nod politely. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 20, 2005 - 11:55 PM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Brisbane
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Dear Billy,
Coming from Brisbane, where the sun never stops shining, I wonder what sort of "light", real or metaphorical, would shine in Bradford.
My understanding of the Muslim community is that it is heavily South Asian and quite conservative in outlook. If I remember correctly, they burned "The Satanic Verses" there.
I have no idea what the Subud group there is like. Stodgy and solid or alive and active.
At 40 you seem to be on the cusp of something wonderful. I pray you receive bread instead of a stone to eat.
"Subud and Islam" is an old topic. Rather than have a lot of old stuff repeated, why don't you, as, I presume, a convert to Islam, tell the punters your story and then they may be able to reply appropriately? Or, if you are that anthropological specimen "an ethnic Muslim", that would be even more interesting.
You seem, with interests in Subud and "A Course in Miracles", to be at a stage where there is a possibility of something wonderful opening up.
I hope the Bradford Women Helpers can give you some satisfaction. Maybe even put you on to some good preliminary stuff to read. Practical.
As a revert to Islam, who found out that he actually had, to his delight, a long and ancient Muslim and Sufi pedigree, I have found myself in a somewhat different position to the Ridwan (formerly Jack) Grimethorpes of this world. I "fitted in" from the start. In all ways. 29 years later I rejoice in reverting.
Islam at the moment seems to be struggling to find its true soul. My feeling is that its true soul was revealed during the life of Rasulullah salallahoo allahi wasalaam and that, after it had sunk deplorably since then, there was a wonderful revival in the 11th to 14th Centuries CE, with the like of Ibn al Arabi, Shams of Tabriz, Maulana Rumi, Sheikh Suhrawardi, Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti etc.
Subud to me was a light that enabled me to return to this heritage. It is significant to me that the late Pak Subuh was a Seyyid, a descendant of the great Sheikh Abdul Qadir al Gilani and a practising and tolerant Muslim.
May I say I hope that you are blessed, guided and protected on your journey?
May you find Him.
Jazzaz Allah,
Ismail |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2005 - 11:26 AM
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A long way to the 7th Level
Joined: Oct 03, 2004
Posts: 68
Location: Sydney
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Hi guys
First, it's good to see that some people in Subud do take a religion seriously.
One question that I have about Subud and Islam (not being a Muslim: but always open to education) is this:
My understanding is that in Islam, the Qur'an is considered the literal word of God, so that to do anything that is prohibited by the Qur'an is un-Islamic. Is that correct?
And if so, for an Islamic Subud member, would not the Qur'an take precedence over anything in Subud -- testing, Pak Subuh's advice, etc.
The reason for my question is this: As I understand it, the promise of Subud is that it has not teaching, does not contradict any religion, and is open to people of any religion. But I can for myself see that there is a lot of teaching in Subud, and the advice of some Muslim friends as that much of this advice does indeed contradict the Qur'an.
Your views?
David |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2005 - 01:01 PM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Brisbane
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Dear David,
You have certainly slipped in a "loaded" question! 
I imagine you have no Arabic.
Have you ever studied one of the English interpretations of the Quran generally respected by Muslims such as Pickthall's or Yusuf Ali's? Because, even though it is true that the Quran is essentially untranslatable, you might get a clue of what it is about. A tiny one.
Some suras ("chapters") of the Quran actually state that they are metaphors. So they cannot be taken "literally"!
Reading and attempting to understand and follow the Quran and Islam are not as simple as you infer.
You appear to be asking whether an orthodox Muslim would be forced to consider Subud outside Islam.
May I quote, against this loaded question, from Ronald Eyre's "The Long Search" a question he asked the Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar and the answer he received?
"How free, I asked, is a Muslim to interpret the Quran for himself and reach a dissenting conclusion that might shock the orthodox? Freedom of interpretation might, he thought, be possible under certain conditions. First, master Arabic; then absorb yourself in the Quran; then study the Sayings of the Prophet, the conditions of his life, the structure of his community; then sit at the feet of the great lawyers who are the successors of one or other of the mighty four who established the four accepted schools of Islamic Law; throughout, live the regular life of a Muslim. Then, ask the question again."
Subud is not mentioned in the Quran.
Whether it is acceptable or unacceptable for Muslims is something, if a Muslim Subud member was concerned about, he could approach the requisite authorities for a ruling.
I am sure, if you wish, having embraced Islam, you could approach the Fatwa Committee of Al Azhar University.
I regret I am unable to help by issuing the relevant fatwa. My apologies.
With respectful regrets,
Ismail |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2005 - 02:21 PM
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A long way to the 7th Level
Joined: Oct 03, 2004
Posts: 68
Location: Sydney
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Hi Ismael
Ismail wrote:
You have certainly slipped in a "loaded" question! :shock:
I confess that to be the case.
Ismail wrote:
I imagine you have no Arabic.
Only the requesite 20-30 terms one comes across in Subud :-)
Ismail wrote:
Have you ever studied one of the English interpretations of the Quran generally respected by Muslims such as Pickthall's or Yusuf Ali's? Because, even though it is true that the Quran is essentially untranslatable, you might get a clue of what it is about. A tiny one.
I confess to be a serious student of:
- the Enlightenment
- what has come after the Enlightenment
- Western and Zen Buddhism
- liberal Christianity
My knowledge of Islam is little, but rather than try and remedy that (or rather my prefered road to the remedy) is to depend upon you for the expertise.
Ismail wrote:
Some suras ("chapters") of the Quran actually state that they are metaphors. So they cannot be taken "literally"! Reading and attempting to understand and follow the Quran and Islam are not as simple as you infer. You appear to be asking whether an orthodox Muslim would be forced to consider Subud outside Islam.
I'm glad to hear that non-literalists interpration of the Quran is allowed, though I'm not sure how many of your coreligionists would agree.
Ismail wrote:
May I quote, against this loaded question, from Ronald Eyre's "The Long Search" a question he asked the Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar and the answer he received?
"How free, I asked, is a Muslim to interpret the Quran for himself and reach a dissenting conclusion that might shock the orthodox? Freedom of interpretation might, he thought, be possible under certain conditions. First, master Arabic; then absorb yourself in the Quran; then study the Sayings of the Prophet, the conditions of his life, the structure of his community; then sit at the feet of the great lawyers who are the successors of one or other of the mighty four who established the four accepted schools of Islamic Law; throughout, live the regular life of a Muslim. Then, ask the question again."
Again: I trust that you will take that role, as a Muslim. I want to remain the questioning outsider. I'd like you to be the knowledgeable insider.
And again: I am not seeking to question Islam, but Subud. For Subud promises not to contradict any religion, which I think is a wonderful and worthy promise. However, my sense is that we have failed to deliver on said promise, and so I am investigating whether that is the case (with different faiths) and if so how so.
Ismail wrote:
Subud is not mentioned in the Quran. Whether it is acceptable or unacceptable for Muslims is something, if a Muslim Subud member was concerned about, he could approach the requisite authorities for a ruling.
I am sure, if you wish, having embraced Islam, you could approach the Fatwa Committee of Al Azhar University. I regret I am unable to help by issuing the relevant fatwa. My apologies.
I shall write Al Azhar University for a determination.
Thank you.
David |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2005 - 10:29 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
Posts: 7
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire, England
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Salaams Dear Ones, and many thanks for your thoughts and sharing.
Ismailji, thank-you for sharing so honestly your subud experiences. There is so much value to one who arrives as I do with an openness to hear what has not worked for you as much as what has...
Henryji, your comments reflect what I wondered, that, as in many organised faiths, in Islam also the dogmatic outlook of many leaves little space for an open heart and mind to God's guidance other than through the interpretation of priest, parent and community...
Perhaps as Ismail suggests, what might elicit most true sharing is tell you more about how I find myself here...
Ismail, please contain your excitement; I am an anthropological as opposed to revert specimen I am born a Muslim, of south asian parents, came to the UK as a child and have been raised in a fairly traditional, Muslim family. The beliefs we were taught were simple : There is One God (swt) and His Prophet is Muhammed (pbuh). We read the Quran, we fast, we pray, we observe the pillars of Islam. A very simple faith, based on reward for observing what is prescribed and fear of punishment for contravention. Even the term "sufi" was never part of our vocabulary.Yet our parents were enlightened enough to want to educate their daughters as well as sons, so that we would be able to stand on our own two feet. Thus we are Oxbridge educated, have worked at the most senior levels with the brightest in our generation and.....yes....and life continues to intervene:-)
I have found myself questioning at the times of (apparently) great success as well as dark times when there was no-one else to turn to but God.... why this? where next? what next? and without fail, on every single occasion I have asked that, doors have opened, books have appeared, a path has cleared, light has shone... Something that started many years ago has simply repeated periodically each time my need to learn intensified. Why I have journeyed in this direction I have no idea. I have simply learned somewhere along the line to trust what unfolds...
I have not participated in any organised groups. I never felt a call to do so and, in all honesty I think was most constrained from doing so because I feared that my Muslim family and friends would neither understand nor support my questions and endeavours. There was a time when I was even concerned if they saw what I was reading....These days, I no longer hide my books and I have a network of friends (including some Muslims) with whom I share my questioning...
This time, as I fell to my knees, I found everywhere I turned words speaking of unconditional love...of our direct access to God... that EVERYTHING is possible through Him. I have always been taught this, yet for the first time I know it...
I did not come looking for subud. I was trying to locate a local sufi group, and got distracted by something called subud (lol, don't you just love accidental encounters)...
So far, no-one from my local subud group has responded to my emails contact. I feel fine about that; if it's the place I am meant to be, it will happen, if not then in the meantime I have encountered all of you wonderful souls here For the rest, there is no choice for me any more. Some days I am so profoundly contented at the touch of God in my heart. Some days I want to scream because I know a lesson that I somehow did not get first time round is reappearing in even more strongly. Most days I am in awe of miracles that smooth my path and the unfolding of connections and blessings I could never have imagined. I've experienced the most profound sadness...the deepest joy, and at times it is as if my heart has been broken open to a position where love simultaneously pours in and out through no will of my own. So many miracles... it feels somehow inappropriate to seek to even describe...
So these are all reasons why I ask what I do. I grew up on Bradford and returned here recently after many years away. I was increasingly resisting what I felt as negative/low energy here these last months (and it's interesting how those who have never lived here have a media-created image of the place), yet as I have realised recently that this is the perfect place for me to be right now, doors have begun to open which may cause me to move. Who am I to question lol; all I can do is pray for only He knows what lies ahead.
As for David's question regarding what we are allowed and not allowed to do as Muslims, I am not a scholar and I ask Allah's forgiveness for any wrongs. I act on the encouragement given to us in the Quran to seek knowledge. I have never asked a scholar whether what I do is right or wrong, and I do not intend to at this time. I pray Allah's guidance and I trust what unfolds will serve my faith. I think that is what interests me most about latihan : I rely so much on doing what feels right, and it's when I ignore that guidance that things go wrong. Allah created all, and that too is His gift, His sound.
I know now more than I have ever known that this really is a lifetime's journey. If there comes a day when I am challenged (in whatever way) by more dogmatic Muslim belief, then at that time I will also ask for Allah's guidance and His mercy. I truly believe He sees what is in our hearts, and when we really, really want to serve as best we may, He will forgive our mistakes. For me, right now, that feels like an acceptable place to be. For many Muslims, I suspect it would be untenable.. That is between them and Allah, as much as it is between me and Him. I was raised to believe that Allah is loving and kind, and the fear that is so much associated with Islam these days is not part of my heritage. Ironically, I feel more free at this time to explore my faith than I ever have...
Forgive the many, many words. I hope they shed some light on what I ask.
May we each be guided to Be as best serves God's will.
Thank-you all for your blessings. May you receive the same in great abundance.
Love and blessings
Billy
Ohhh, and I don't know about sunshine, it's been snowing here today. Very pretty it looked too! |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2005 - 11:09 PM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Brisbane
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Hi David,
"Subud and Islam": a "hot" topic raises its head once again! 
A friend of mine - a respected Sufi and Imam in this country - once raised the question of metaphorical verses in the Quran with some socalled "Islamic literalists". He is a native Arabic speaker. They were forced to concede.
Many items of belief in Islam - particularly the essentials - are quite clear and unarguable.
I would suggest, if you want a genuine answer to your question, you look within. This may require some study.
I would suggest Seyyed Hossein Nasr's "Ideals and Realities of Islam"; Akbar S. Ahmed's "Living Islam" and Abdullah Saeed's "Islam in Australia" as good starting points. All authors have lived and studied in both East and West and know Western culture.
There are many Islamic points of view.
I would suggest that the Wahabbis (Saudi Arabia) would condemn Subud out of hand.
Malaysia, progressive, middle of the road, does not allow Malays (by legal definition Sunni Muslims of the Shafi school) to join Subud. I believe it is considered a "bidat" (religious innovation) there.
I have the honour and privilege to be personally acquainted with some legitimate Muslim Sufis, both here and abroad.
Two Sufi sheikhs have advised me that they consider Subud a bit of a downmarket "take" of Sufism.
The fact that many Muslims in Subud don't follow the Sharia is a matter of concern to them.
Likewise they are concerned that there is no guidance to members like that provided personally by a Sufi sheikh.
Subud is seen as marginal to Islam, if not outside completely, by most Nonsubud Muslims who know about it.
Has Subud failed its Muslim members?
In many ways some past Subud "leaders" in the West have not helped.
But many Nonmuslim Subud members feel the same way.
The Islamic Council of NSW has at least one Alim (religious scholar). I believe the Central Sydney Mosque at Zetland has some decent people associated with it.
If you wrote to Abdullah Saeed - at Melbourne University - and asked him your question you might find it illuminating. Most intelligent Muslims in this country don't know about Subud.
Regards,
Ismail |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2005 - 11:35 PM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Brisbane
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Dear Sister Kallibilly,
Many thanks for your last posting.
I feel you have been truly blessed in your search.
Although not an "ethnic Muslim" I do have, Alhamdolillah, some legitimate
"ethnic Muslim" ancestry. I am very grateful to the lady for marrying an ancestor in the good old days because through her our line connects directly with Khwaja Moinuddin Hasan Chishti of Ajmer.
My father died last year. He always wondered about an "Indian connection" in the family. He never knew!
My two daughters are incredibly proud of the connection but realise it is something they have to live up to without boasting!
To use Ozspeak: "You're OK Luv. She'll be right."
I hope Subud Bradford treats you well. You deserve it!
You are blessed. May He continue to bless, guide and protect you.
It's all happening, Sister. Trust in Him. He will never let you down.
Apologies for my sense of humour (?)
As Sallaamu Aleikum.
Warmest regards,
Ismail |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 21, 2005 - 11:59 PM
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A long way to the 7th Level
Joined: Oct 03, 2004
Posts: 68
Location: Sydney
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Hi Ismael
Thank you for the excellent roadmap -- exactly what I was looking for.
I may be back, if the road leads to any further questions.
Take care
David |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 22, 2005 - 03:05 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Brisbane
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No problems David.
May you be blessed and guided to wherever the Good Lord wishes to guide you.
All books should be available through a good local library, or failing that, try the Fisher Library at Sydney Uni.
"Subud and Islam" is a touchy subject.
I am delighted that someone like Kallibilly has said what she did.
Thank God - quite literally - for people like her.
Take care.
Ismail |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 10, 2005 - 08:02 AM
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Directed Jiwa
Joined: Feb 27, 2003
Posts: 31
Location: Hong Kong, S.A.R., PRC
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To Muslims who are Subud members
I have heard from Subud Muslims that they strongly believe in the saying: "There will be no Priophet after Muhammed". The one in Hong Kong who told me this saying used that as the basis for leaving Subud.
This implied that Bapak was a Prophet which he emphatically worked hard to dispell as well as to turn members toward finding the Divine within themselves and to not in any way worship him or his image after he died. He stated that only God can know the content of a human being when he was queried regarding his own level.
Varindra Vittachi noted to the Hong Kong member that this saying puts man higher than God (or Allah).
With proper respect to all views,
Michaelf |
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