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Post subject:
 Posted: Nov 16, 2004 - 04:00 AM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
Posts: 14
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Henry:
I don't know how to do multiple quotes so I'll just cut and paste.
"our role as Bapak's deputies, now he has died, is still to look after Subud members! "
So we both agree that our job is to help members. That's why I understand myself to be a member's helper rather than Bapak's helper. And as I have mentioned Bapak was a member's helper too. I just don't understand myself to be Bapak's deputy. The definiton of deputy is:
1. A person appointed or empowered to act for another. 2. An assistant exercising full authority in the absence of his or her superior and equal authority in emergencies.
I might accept that helpers are empowered to act for Bapak in witnessing a member's first spiritual exercise and to assist in guided exercises. It's that authority issue that I believe causes a lot of the problems with helper's misbehavior. I deal with that issue by saying that I have no more authority than any other member, just more responsibilities. I believe it best to simply state that I am a helper for members and ignore the fact that I'm doing so to assist a dead man.
"Your Bapak quote about the fishing thing (if it really is accurate), is actually as I understand a very Buddhist statement, referring to the whole reincarnation, suffering the sins of your ancestors physically thing."
First, Bapak was expressing an animist notion that the spirit of the fish caused the harelip in the child. The hooking the lip of the fish caused the harelip in the child. It is not a Buddhist statement. To a western rationalist, it is what is called superstition.
Second, the Hindu and Buddhist ideas of reincarnation and karma are hardly the same notion as suffering the sins of your ancesters. A google search finds no reference to Hinduism or Buddhism and instead finds a subject index of Bapak's talks: http://www.iscmedia.com/talksubjects.html. "Ancestors, there is nothing you can do attone the sins of ancestors except surrender." It is a teaching of Bapak's taken from the Islamic religion.
Third, I'm not complaining about what Bapak said but observing that it is based on an animist notion, or superstition. Last I checked, fishing was not a sin!
Listening to Bapaks' talks in a state of receiving is, you say "It is feeling and experiencing the Latihan in you(r) daily life." The reason Bapak gave for his talks was to help quiet the heart and mind of people. It is intended to assist in receiving, or to help deepen receiving -- in general, not necessarily in everday life. There is a difference in receiving in everyday life and using the tool of Bapak's talks to quiet the heart and mind.
I get quiet by simply allowing the heart and mind to become quiet. Simple and direct. I can and do experince the spiritual exercise in daily life. I need no help in receiving or in deeping receiving. The talks are a tool I do not need. I have no need for and a strong understanding that it is wrong for me to mix Bapak's talks with my receiving.
Now for the crux of the matter. A lenghty quote and a short reply.
"Really, all I think this comes down to, is who to ask when you have questions about Subud and the Latihan. Helpers are human beings who (hopefully) do the Latihan, Bapak was a human being who did the Latihan. I do not believe you should turn to either for "help with the Latihan" as you say - the Latihan only comes from God. But when I have a question - would I trust you or Bapak more? No offence, but I would choose Bapak."
I would choose the spiritual exercise.
(I am a Radical Latihanist rather than a Bapak Fundamentalist).
zizbo |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 - 05:00 AM
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Jiwa Dancer
Joined: Apr 02, 2004
Posts: 23
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zizbo wrote:
"Really, all I think this comes down to, is who to ask when you have questions about Subud and the Latihan. Helpers are human beings who (hopefully) do the Latihan, Bapak was a human being who did the Latihan. I do not believe you should turn to either for "help with the Latihan" as you say - the Latihan only comes from God. But when I have a question - would I trust you or Bapak more? No offence, but I would choose Bapak."
I would choose the spiritual exercise.
(I am a Radical Latihanist rather than a Bapak Fundamentalist).
And that's what makes you a rather singular Subud member (or you might prefer the label 'latihan-doer').
I for one can respect that, however, this suggests the question:
Why do you reject Bapak's advice on seemingly philosophical grounds, when God/the life force/whatever, definitely "chose" to give the so-called first contact to him so that he could give it to someone else so that they could give it to you?
Or do you consider only the exercise to be valid, and God et al. to be cultural by-products of Bapak's upbringing? |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 - 05:56 AM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
Posts: 14
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Ryan wrote:
Why do you reject Bapak's advice on seemingly philosophical grounds, when God/the life force/whatever, definitely "chose" to give the so-called first contact to him so that he could give it to someone else so that they could give it to you?
Or do you consider only the exercise to be valid, and God et al. to be cultural by-products of Bapak's upbringing?
I do not need Bapak's advice as my receiving is clear and strong. This is not a rejection of Bapak's advice but an acceptance of my receiving. It is not a philosophical issue, it is entirely practical.
The first contact was not Bapak, as you suggest you know when you refer to it as "so-called". Many have experienced the spiritual exercise before Bapak. Some say that this is the basis of prophetic religions. The spiritual exercise has had many names and forms throughout history and is not an experience limited to only the prophets. This experience has been available to shamans, yogis, and mystics, among others, throughout the ages.
What is unique about Subud is that this experience is available at relatively low cost in terms of effort to obtain it and the need to accept a Guru, spiritual teachings, religious dogma and cultish expectations. What I object to are those people who try to bring those factors into Subud. I'm not alone in that objection.
The exercise is more valid than any Guru, even Bapak.
Buddha told his disciples not to enquire into the origin of the world or into the existence and nature of God. He said to them that such investigations were practically useless and likely to distract their minds from the work of gaining enlightenment. (As a Buddhist, this is another factor in my finding no use for Bapak's talks, again on practical grounds). |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 16, 2004 - 11:41 AM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Jul 13, 2003
Posts: 10
Location: London, England
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When Bapak first recieved the latihan kedjiwaan of Subud, he told that it was not for him alone, but for the whole of mankind. Bapak therefore was willed by God, to give the contact to anyone who asked for it. As this is also a helpers obligation, it can be said that they are helping the burden that was bestowed upon Bapak.
with love Samuel |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 17, 2004 - 12:53 AM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
Posts: 14
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Samuel wrote:
When Bapak first recieved the latihan kedjiwaan of Subud, he told that it was not for him alone, but for the whole of mankind. Bapak therefore was willed by God, to give the contact to anyone who asked for it. As this is also a helpers obligation, it can be said that they are helping the burden that was bestowed upon Bapak.
with love Samuel
Who gives what contact? Helpers simply witness the first spiritual exercise of a new member. Helpers explain Subud to prospective members. Helpers aid members with guided exercises. These are perhaps burdens but they are no longer Bapak's. Bapak was a helper to members. Why must we be understood even now as Bapak's helpers instead of member's helpers?
By the way, I like the idea of placing the authority over helpers with the membership they are to serve. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 17, 2004 - 02:53 AM
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Jiwa Dancer
Joined: Apr 02, 2004
Posts: 23
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zizbo wrote:
These are perhaps burdens but they are no longer Bapak's. Bapak was a helper to members. Why must we be understood even now as Bapak's helpers instead of member's helpers?
By the way, I like the idea of placing the authority over helpers with the membership they are to serve.
In my mind, no matter how you look at it, the helpers are supposed to help the members. Yes, they once helped Bapak, but he was helping the members.
Bapak helps members. Helpers help Bapak. Thus, helpers help members.
Helpers being accountable to and/or assigned by the membership they serve is a brilliant idea. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 12, 2004 - 02:00 AM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Jul 22, 2002
Posts: 8
Location: England
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Just wanted to say...
I find Bapak's talks really peaceful and calms me, brings me a feeling of the latihan when I read them or listen to them. I don't study them as I believe we shouldn't and I don't find any need to figure-out anything.
I hope some will agree there is something very special about both Ibu and Bapak's talks...something beyond culture or some system or religion. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 12, 2004 - 02:14 AM
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A long way to the 7th Level
Joined: Oct 03, 2004
Posts: 68
Location: Sydney
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Hi Bustami
One way of reading your post is that the talks should be listened to without translation, almost like a form of music.
I think that idea has merit, and might even heal the divided between the Talkists and the non-Talkists.
David |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 05, 2006 - 09:37 PM
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Directed Jiwa
Joined: Sep 11, 2004
Posts: 35
Location: UK
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I thought I would resurrect this thread as it seemed to abruptly end - well done all for your comments as it is always enlightening listening to 2 sides of the same truth.
I am currently doing Rammadan as best I can I hope and I feel that this year a path has opened up for me. I am feeling that the more I do Latihan the more I realise I am way behind where I want /need to be and among other things I have realised the following. It is near impossible to pursuade anyone to do something differently until they find the truth themselves. Luckily we have the Latihan as well so that helps no end. Despite knowing I should do something or not do something it is not until you can appreciate the full extent of what you are doing that you can amend your behaviour. However we need to start from somewhere and so that is why I feel Bapaks talks are relevant. Hopefully the soul can pick something up from them that ends up germinating later on as without listening to some kind of source how are we to move on? Bapak repeatedly says (and Ibu) that the talks are not meant to be learnt or thought about at all, but that they should be simply listened to and hopefully we will grow from something within the talk. To adopt the talks into rules was never the point and goes a long way to destroying what they were meant to be.
I'm afraid that I can not comment on previous posts concerning Buddhist or Islamic meaning behind the talks as I have not studied or practiced these but I understand almost everything Bapak was saying, so to me it feels that what he has to say is relevant. Without it we will still progress and I am sure that a contientious latihaner must get more out of Subud than the infrequent one who has managed to read every talk Bapak and Ibu ever gave.
Anyway look forward to any replies, especially the posters from 2004 to see if your views have changed at all! With much affection, Oliver. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 05, 2006 - 11:53 PM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 11, 2006
Posts: 136
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| There are so many talks by Bapak, it would be helpful if they were categorized by subject matter. At least then you could have some idea whether a talk addresses issues that now concern you. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 06, 2006 - 11:10 AM
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Site Admin
Joined: Jul 14, 2002
Posts: 295
Location: 世界 Shijie
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This forum thread has as much value to Subud, Subud Life, the people who post in it as a lingering fart that just won’t dissipate.
As Subud Life Ultimate Arbiter and Heavenly Moderator  I am laying some parameters. If people want to write posts it MUST be a discussion about what people have read of Bapak's talks, to share in their content in the least intellectual fashion possible. This of course is only for those that wish to share and work things through as relevant to a given talk.
Mike www.subudlibrary.net does categorise Bapak and Rahayu talks or rather I think uses key words to give some semblance of linkage to a search criteria. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 07, 2006 - 09:13 PM
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Directed Jiwa
Joined: Sep 11, 2004
Posts: 35
Location: UK
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Dearest Harun,
As moderator and site watchdog it may be good to have a new thread on relevant topics as I thought this thread was promoting some healthy banter - though as I have now learnt is not so. On the point regarding relevance to this site, is that your photo of Adam Ant and Will Smith you posted? 
Best wishes,
Oliver. |
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