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Post subject: Sharing feelings from Bapak's Talks
 Posted: May 31, 2003 - 07:28 AM
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Site Admin
Joined: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 60
Location: Copenhagen
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ADMIN NOTE: Original Title: Talks=RULES or ADVICE???
Hello everyone.
I was just reading the last post under "subud eyes" by Moonlight, and was inspired to begin a new topic about something we have discussed many times, Bapaks and Ibu Rahayus talks.......
Moonlight wrote:
Quote:
It`s really easy to go and do the Latihan, but how difficult it is to follow Bapak`s words, to follow the Prophets advices......to be consequent.
I would like to discuss this:
ARE THE TALKS HERE TO GIVE US GOOD ADVICE, OR DO THEY SHOW US HOW TO LIVE OUR LIFES(=RULES)??????
I live in a very atheistic and democratic country, here there is no tradition for following the words of the bible(eventhough the danes are christians). Maybe that is why I do not see the words of Bapak as a set of rules that I need to follow.
I have a deep respect for both Bapak and Ibu Rahayu, and I respect everything they say in the talks. But I do not follow everything they say blindly. I see the talks as good advice, as explanations when I do not know how things work. Generally I have the feeling that I would rather test about it for my self and feel how it is for ME instead of blindly following the words of Bapak.
Is this caused by my culture? Would fundamentalistic christians(or any other religion) see this differently? Actually I think so.
If you're used to obeying some kind of rules in your own religion, wouldn't you tend to see talks as rules aswell????
Maybe I am wrong, because I am not a fundamentalistic christian(so I wouldn't know how they see things, but this is excactly why I started this topic). I don't feel that I should follow EVERY single word in the bible(or in the talks).
How consequent should we be?
The things that are said in the talks have a great value for everyone. Though we could need some reediting, since the language it is written in is from the 1950's-1980's.(here I mean Bapaks talks)
Am I completely wrong? Maybe, but this is how I feel about the talks. Other people feel different about it, and that is ok for I would never try to make/force someone see things the same way I do, that is impossible!!!
What do you all think about it?
Love Irina |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 31, 2003 - 11:46 PM
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Directed Jiwa
Joined: Feb 04, 2003
Posts: 33
Location: London
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Hi Irina,
My understanfding is that Bapak not only advised against blindly following his advise, but said that it is potentially dangerous. If we are subservient to a Guru, then we run the risk of disempowering ourselves, and it will be harder for us to truly feel the inner reality of our experiences.
Bapak did also advocate and encourage participation in a religion, by which we have a set of rules to bring order and health to our lives.
Fortunately, and Bapak knew this first, our Latihans teach us to behave in the apropriate way by showing us the inner reality of our actions and behaviour.
I say "Be Good," because this is natural for people. I believe that people inately desire to be good, and also that their interpretations of what is "Good" vary somewhat:
Which is worse, not honouring thy father and thy mother, coverting another mans property, or murder? Well, I know what I think, but...ah, skip it.
Rulebook, schmoolbook, I say. Subud is higher than that. If people want rules, there's some great religions out there to choose from, and Subud isn't one of them.
Lucas |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 06, 2003 - 10:04 PM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Apr 17, 2003
Posts: 161
Location: Britain
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Dearest Lucas,
It's a sad fact that we must be very careful to structure how we say these things today. Subud may not be (is not) a religion. Yet Subud Britain is and must be, in accordance with UK charity law, a "religious organisation". Otherwise we could lose our charitable status and begin the sickly drift towards culthood.
This is the chief reason why I do not trust attempts to secularise Subud, or else distance it from any feeling of closeness to religion. Contrary to what some may think, religion is normal. It permeates the fabric of every society in the world. My experience of Subud is that it perfects religion, so we each can follow our own religions in the way that is right for ourselves.
Hence when we say Subud is "non-religious", it means a hundred different things to a hundred different people. It is true, Subud is not a religion. However, Subud Britain is a religious organisation under UK charity law, and rightfully so. In any case the reality is that Subud and the Latihan reveal the true nature and purpose of religion.
I bring all this up because I question Lucas' assumption that making any conscious effort to adhere to Bapak's advice is the same as following a guru. I think the term "rule" implies an exertion of power and control which is completely of context in Subud. The idea of "rules" as an exertion of power does not even truly belong in religion: in Islam, the Koran tells us "there is no compulsion in religion", and in the Torah, the word "commandments" as in "the 10 Commandments" is in fact a mistranslation, it actually better translates into English as "teachings".
The reason we pay attention to Bapak's advise in Subud is out of love and respect for Bapak, (there is no past and present tense in the world of the jiwa), and because we understand it to be healthy for our inner. But yes, the only way to confirm this is through testing in the Latihan, so perhaps we should all do this.
I've come under bitter personal attack for offending peoples feelings before, so before I finish I beg your forgiveness if anything I have written is out of place. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 08, 2003 - 09:07 AM
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Divinely Inspired
Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 93
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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I worry more about the sickly drift towards becoming a religion. Isn't the charity status basically for financial benefit?
Following Bapak's advice seems like a prudent thing to do. This is because I think the latihan is fantastic, and Bapak was the latihan expert, so that makes Bapak a bit of an expert in related matters -- just logic. But still, it's only prudent to follow Bapak as long as I don't go against any feeling that comes from my soul. Otherwise I'd be following rules, and if Subud had rules, I wouldn't be in Subud. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 08, 2003 - 10:05 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Apr 17, 2003
Posts: 161
Location: Britain
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| Its not just for that. If we're not a charity, what are we? A private company? A political group? Its for respectablity. The term "non-profit organisation" looks rather unspecific and suspicious. Subud already has been branded a cult in France, however unjustly. Sometimes we don't realise just how vulnerable we are. |
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Post subject: here,here
Posted: Jul 11, 2003 - 04:35 AM
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Jiwa Dancer
Joined: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 17
Location: Perth
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Hi Irina et al,
Well Irina, i think i'm with you on this one. Could be a phase, perhaps i'm in the middle of a learning curve, but in the last three months i have gone through rather fundamental changes in my attitude towards many things including Subud. I too find it hard to read Bapak's talks, in fact i haven't really been able to read one for quite some time. The reason - i am sick of operating from fear and guilt and others perceptions of right and wrong. The other night i had the 'urge' to pick up the bible and have a read. I became extremely frustrated. Many in Subud are very faithful, we trust in Subud and wish to uphold its name. This is of course how others feel towards their religion. Whilst reading the bible i felt torn in two, here they are speaking of God, the one God, the God that often i have turned too, that i state to be the most important thing in my life, and they give this God the characteristics of a vengeful, human being who would, in this day and age, be considered to be rather underdeveloped. So do i trust my judgement, my intellect, or do i go against my feelings that God loves all humans, punishes none and can be felt in many ways. At the end of this struggle, in what was a large step for me, i threw the bible in the bin. It, the bible, made me feel guilty, 'sinful'. I should not feel this way. Below are a few other observations/realisations i have had recently:
- It is ignorant to believe that there is only one way of feelings gods presence. The world has a long history, many people and cultures. I wish to exist in a spirit of kinship with all humans in the world and this means truly respecting their cultural beliefs.
- I always heard stories of catholics, christians turning from their childhood religions when they realised how restrictive they were. They had become sick of the conservative, guilt ridden teachings. I thought this would be an easy thing to do, but now have a different understanding, since it has been very hard and scary to admit to myself and others that there are things in Bapak's talks that i cannot conform to. It comes down to a fear of blasphemy. That we will be punished or cut off from God if we do not adhere to these rules or advice that talks of certain forms of punishment.
- If you really want to shake up your ideas on religion  have a read of DH Lawrence's Apocalypse. I think he was a rather angry man, and do not hold his words as gospel, but he does raise some interesting points in this book. It is funny the things you pick up and read at certain times in your life. He shows the symbolism that is present in the apocalypse and, through literary analysis, shows how there are exact links between the pagan mythologies and these symbols. Not abstract ambiguous links but really obvious continuations. And yet i have held, and i assume many others have also, the belief that Christianity and other accepted religions are above Paganism, above all the non-monotheistic religions. I realise now that this was a rather ignorant viewpoint.
The other day i contacted a church to see if i could use a space in their building for a dance performance, the administrator said she would have to know more about the dance, fair enough, she asked me "It's not pagan dance is it"? I felt like telling her that i had recently discovered there are many pagan stories within the bible. For example how can we overlook the rather pagan existance in the apocalypse of mythical creatures that have the head of one animal, the body of another, the legs of another and the tail of another!
There is a context to religion and spirituality. The essence of most is eternal and infinite and that is what is most important to all humans, however we have to be able to see our context and not be scared to question those things which stand out.
- A lot of what i did was based on the fear of punishment from God. I decided that i would try to think in this way - I love God no matter what he/she/it is and does, and God also loves me unconditionally. After a lifetime of asking for forgiveness, this is a hard transition to make, and i still find myself doing it but it is different. There are people who, when comforting others in instances of rape and other traumatic events, say that our soul cannot be dirtied, it is eternal, and eternally clean. I like thinking of this, a white light in the centre of each human being that is eternal and beautiful. What this communicates is that we are always safe.
- I also become a bit flabbergasted when i ask myself "If Bapak was able to receive the latihan, something that is so beautiful, so true, how can what he says not be true". The answer? I don't know I know he was a devout Muslim, an Indonesian, and from another generation so they may be clues as to why i find it difficult to accept what is said in the talks. I would never criticise Bapak however, my love for him is deep, so therefore i am not attacking Subud, or suggesting change. This change that i am going through is for myself and i am not recommending it to anyone else, but there maybe others out there who are experiencing similar things and therefore i share my experiences.
OK, well that is all for me.
Seeya,
Robin  |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 12, 2004 - 08:00 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
Posts: 14
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To address some points made in this discussion:
Subud is not a religon but it has legally declared itself in several countries to be a religious organization.
It is a fundamental error to mistake a "religious organization" with a religion. Islam, Christianity, Judiasm, Hinduism, etc are religions. Mosques, churches and temples are religious organizations.
There are religious organizations not affiliated with any religion. To provide the extreme example, humanists and atheists have recognized religious charities in the USA.
A non-profit organization (NPO) is determined primarily on how it uses any funds under its control. The type of NPO (educational, animal welfare, etc) is determined by the organization's main charitable purpose and activity.
Subud is an organization outside of any specific religion but it's main activity has been declared, by the organization when seeking NPO status, to be religious.
A religious organization like Subud can provide a place for religous activites without providing any rules or teachings about religion.
Being a religous charity is irrelevant to the question of whether an organization is a cult. Many so-called cults have the same legal status as Subud. (In France, there is a 1996 Parliamentary Report on Cults, but the courts said the report has no legal status and officials cannot use the report for making decisions).
A cult, like a religion, generally offers its members rules and teachings. To the extent that members reguard Bapak's talks as providing rules for them is the extent that they are treating Subud as a cult or a religion (which is actually just a large and socially acceptable cult).
Now, the main topic: Advice or rules in the talks?
To what do you grant authority in guiding your spiritual exercise? I give it to the receiving in the exercise itself. I do not mix the latihan with the jumble of animist, Hindu and Islamic teachings in Bapak's talks.
You may want to use these talks for advice about the exercise when having difficulty. However, too much of Bapak's talks stray from a discussion of the spiritual exercise into a discussion of other matters.
Did you know, for example, that the reason a man's child had a hare lip was because he went fishing when his wife was pregnant? This is according to Bapak and apparently received from God!
This might be understood as advice, if not a rule, about activites to be undertaken when expecting a child. However, it is far, far away from any useful advice when considering how to deal with difficulties in the spiritual exercise. That is why I can not recommend Bapak's talks when members need help with their exercise. Too much irrelevant, er, "stuff".
The place to turn when needing help with the latihan? To a helper you would hope.
Do helpers have any authority in Subud? Think of them as member's helpers rather than Bapak's helpers. Bapak is dead and does not need any help. It can be that members need help. Helpers are hopefully trusted advisors rather than mini-Bapaks (in the sense of Bapak as Guru).
Find a helper focused on helping you rather than quoting what Bapak had to say to someone else about a situation like yours. A helper can do a guided exercise (testing) with you so you can determine how to deal with any difficulties you are having with your exercise. That is the best source of advice about the latihian I know of, if you need it.
The best source of religious rules? Your own religion and your own receivings gained in spiritual exercise of Subud. If you are getting rules from Subud as an organization (for example, from a helper) or from a collection of talks by its founder, you are becoming a member of the world's fastest declining cult. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 13, 2004 - 08:58 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Apr 17, 2003
Posts: 161
Location: Britain
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Hi Zizbo,
Have you received all this, or is it your own culture specific, ideology intensive personal dogma? 
Henry |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 13, 2004 - 05:52 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
Posts: 14
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Henry wrote:
Have you received all this, or is it your own culture specific, ideology intensive personal dogma?
Henry
Thanks for the wink. What is the other emoticon? A growl? Yikes.
At the risk of taking too seriously a comment apparently made in jest, I will offer an answer.
I came to Subud because I understood that this exercise was available at low cost of membership in terms of effort required to gain access to it, cultish expectations, religious rules and spiritual teachings. After joining Subud, my exercise was clear and strong. I have had no reason to ask for advice or explainations about the exercise as I have no difficulty with it.
I attended two of Bapak's talks in person out of curiousity. I left with the understanding that what he had to say was of no use to me. Having no need for the talks, I have largely ignored them. The spiritual exercise has always been sufficent for me. However, as a helper, I have had to come to terms with the existance of the talks and how they are used.
I haven't found the need to use the talks in my helpers role either. I find that a "guided exercise" (what others call "testing") is a good source of help when people want to receive about something. I look to receiving as the sole authority for oneself in Subud.
So perhaps I am not the best person to discuss the talks. Whether they contain rules or advice, I ignore them just the same.
What can't be ignored are people who find authority in what Bapak said and try to borrow that authority by imposing rules on others or by giving unsolicited advice. Unfortunately, some of those people end up being helpers... |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 14, 2004 - 07:09 PM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Apr 17, 2003
Posts: 161
Location: Britain
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Yes, I enjoy having a growl or two every now and then . The reason I disagree with you is that the membership never asked us to be their helpers. Bapak asked us to be his helpers, and everyone who has been opened or tested in as a helper can draw a direct line from member to helper to helper all the way back to Bapak. That is why we are Bapak’s helpers.
We helpers do not have any authority to claim that we know more than the members - their souls may be higher than ours, and they may have progressed more in the Latihan. As often as not, I find that when I am testing for a member, they have been doing the Latihan for longer than me.
The reason members come to helpers for testing is because helpers opened them. We are indeed meant to be mini-Bapak’s, Bapak’s deputies. We are not necessarily in any way more qualified to test for and give advice to members than anyone else who has been opened, but for the fact that we have been chosen, directly or indirectly, by Bapak.
And because we are Bapak’s Helpers, we really ought to care about why he set up Subud the way he did, with all the institutions he created in the material organisation, and we ought to care about what he understood to be the nature of the Latihan he first received and which God allowed him to pass on to us, so we ought to read and listen to his talks. Just because he spoke in a different language and came from a different culture, does not change the truth of what he says. We are all human beings. Nothing human ought to be alien to us. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 14, 2004 - 11:26 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
Posts: 14
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Who selected Bapak? Does God need help?
If I am Bapak's helper, what help do I perform for him? He is dead and does not need help. However, members need help, which is what Bapak really was, a helper to members.
By the way, this theory of the succession of helpers directly or indirectly from Bapak does not hold up. I was not asked by a member to be a helper, that is true. Perhaps that is the way it should work! However, they can always not ask me for help if they chose to do so.
Neither was I asked by a helper to be one of them. I'm a volunteer, not a recruit. Other helpers found me qualified for the position. They found me qualified even when I do not read or quote or refer members to Bapak's talks. I can explain Subud to prospective members and do guided exercises with members quite well without refering either myself or them to Bapak's talks.
This theory of succession of members being opened and linked all the way to back Bapak does not hold up either. We are not opened by the helpers (or, indirectly, by Bapak). They are but witnesses to our allowing of this force to find expression in the spiritual exercise. If you think you are opening members, you should re-examine what you are doing.
I go to helpers who did not witness my first spiritual exercise in Subud. It would be a long journey across a whole continent to find that helper, and he has left Subud. I go to particular helpers in the area where, 30 years later, I now live. I do so because I trust them to do a good job of being a helper and joining me in a guided exercise. (Lets do away with the incorrectly translated word "testing" please).
I am a Western Buddhist, so don't accuse me of shying away from "alien" cultures. I do not have any use for Bapak's talks not because they are alien. I chose not to mix anything with my spiritual exercise, even the amalgum of animist, Hindu and Islamic teaching that constitute Bapak's talks.
It is advised to listen or read Bapak's talks while in a state of receiving, yes? To me that is mixing. I do not mix anything with my recieving, even when practicing my own religion! In fact, I am very cautious about doing a guided exercise for myself or others It can be an obtacle to receiving correctly if not approached carefully.
If you feel a need to because you think you were opened by Bapak and think you are Bapak's deputy, then read his talks by all means. I would not find it my place to try to persuade you not to do so. However, don't expect me to come to you as a helper. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2004 - 01:11 AM
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Divinely Inspired
Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 93
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Henry said, "Just because [Bapak] spoke in a different language and came from a different culture, does not change the truth of what he says."
Yes, but not everything that Bapak said was 'true' -- in my opinion, and though apparently not often, he said some things that were false.
Zizbo said, "What can't be ignored are people who find authority in what Bapak said and try to borrow that authority by imposing rules on others or by giving unsolicited advice."
I agree. For organisational issues, though, some kind of 'authority' seems necessary in order for Subud to function. Not surprisingly, the sense of authority is abused now and then, since we are just human beings full of human faults and foibles.
Given that he founded Subud, I think it's reasonable to pay attention to Bapak. On the other hand, I believe Bapak didn't always know what he was talking about. At times when this really mattered, then I suspect he avoided saying too much on the topic. Occasionally though, when he might have felt it didn't make much difference, he seems to have made comments that were loosely inaccurate. Not deliberately, but 'casually'.
Perhaps context had something to do with it. In Bapak's didactic style, 'truth' comes with a dose of pragmatism. I don't see this as going against Bapak. It's just a factor that is possibly useful to recognise, and often isn't recognised. For me, Bapak's main points can be acknowledged without fussing about the factuality of the surrounding trivia.
Furthermore, I think it's obvious that Bapak's talks were largely coloured by his personal cultural background, especially when he was discussing spiritual subjects. Since the inner content doesn't depend on the packaging, that doesn't necessarily matter, but it can be very difficult to separate the outer trappings from any inner message.
So I consider Bapak's advice important, partly because an organisation like Subud needs some basis that is fixed. However, it is a frequent comment that Bapak always spoke in a state of latihan, making his words somehow from a divine source. I don't see this as the case; not in the way implied at face value.
Personally, I seem to benefit from hearing Bapak's talks (as rarely as this occurs). Was Bapak in latihan while speaking? Maybe some of the time, maybe even most of the time -- but (in my view) that would not make his actual words 'sacred'. For me, whenever they seem pitched at a personal level, they are essentially just ADVICE that I sometimes take and sometimes leave.
Cheers,
Merin |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2004 - 02:28 PM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Apr 17, 2003
Posts: 161
Location: Britain
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Quote:
If I am Bapak's helper, what help do I perform for him? He is dead and does not need help.
Well, if you read his talks, you know this, as he talked about the role of the helpers, as his deputies, when he was alive.
Furthermore, as Plato wrote, the soul is immortal and cannot die. Bapak's work while he was alive was to look after Subud. And while he was alive he deputised helpers to help him with this work as he could not be in every group at the same time. And after he passed away, he is not materially in any group. But his mission does not end, as long as there are Subud members, our role as Bapak's deputies, now he has died, is still to look after Subud members!
Merin -
Quote:
Perhaps context had something to do with it. In Bapak's didactic style, 'truth' comes with a dose of pragmatism. I don't see this as going against Bapak. It's just a factor that is possibly useful to recognise, and often isn't recognised. For me, Bapak's main points can be acknowledged without fussing about the factuality of the surrounding trivia.
Exactly, we've been through this before, no more than 7 angels can dance on the head of a pin at any one point in time, enough is enough!
Zizbo -
Quote:
I am a Western Buddhist, so don't accuse me of shying away from "alien" cultures. I do not have any use for Bapak's talks not because they are alien. I chose not to mix anything with my spiritual exercise, even the amalgum of animist, Hindu and Islamic teaching that constitute Bapak's talks.
Funny thing this. Your Bapak quote about the fishing thing (if it really is accurate), is actually as I understand a very Buddhist statement, referring to the whole reincarnation, suffering the sins of your ancestors physically thing. Why do you keep complaining about it?
Quote:
It is advised to listen or read Bapak's talks while in a state of receiving, yes? To me that is mixing.
No it isn’t mixing. It is feeling and experiencing the Latihan in you daily life.
Really, all I think this comes down to, is who to ask when you have questions about Subud and the Latihan. Helpers are human beings who (hopefully) do the Latihan, Bapak was a human being who did the Latihan.
I do not believe you should turn to either for "help with the Latihan" as you say - the Latihan only comes from God. But when I have a question - would I trust you or Bapak more? No offence, but I would choose Bapak.
All my love, Henry  |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2004 - 06:06 PM
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Jiwa Dancer
Joined: May 29, 2004
Posts: 17
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It’s not strange to find someone finds Bapak’s talks as no use. There are hardly a single proof or scientific research which support it. In daily life we analyze, calculate and find as many proof as possible if we need to know whether things are true or not. Our mind are so use to it.
That’s why, to my understanding, Bapak’s talk are not meant to be fully digest by mind. Because then it becomes useless, it doesn’t make sense at all. And this is what I understand as, when you listen to or read it, it is good if you’re in the state of latihan. Because then your mind-which so use to proof, fact and reality- steps aside for a while, and you let your jiwa takes those words and hopefully then you get understanding and benefit from it (much, less, now or later, we don’t know).
Referring to the fishing activity, zizbo finds it as ‘other matters’ which is no use. I find it’s good to know that a man should take care not to have joy, fun or pleasure feeling from other’s pain or suffering, as there’s his child-a very sensitive creature-growing in his wife’s body.
Yeah, Bapak’s talks could be no use for someone but fully beneficial for the other. That’s why as a member and especially as a helper eventhough one finds Bapak’s talks are no use for him, he should not think that it would be no use also for others and simply cannot recommend reading Bapak’s talk. Who knows a member is one of those who find the most benefit (in dealing with his spiritual problems) by reading Bapak’s talks. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 15, 2004 - 07:20 PM
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Divinely Inspired
Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 93
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Dear Henry,
Hmmm, sorry, but you're mistaken. It's a common misconception, but the surface of a spherical cap is not homologically distinct from an affine hyperball near the surface of a rotating black hole with negative entropy gradient. Accordingly, for standard, nickel-plated, round-headed pins, and providing that their energy eigenstates are at ground level, seven angels with spin zero can dance inside each equilateral triangle formed on the radial geodesics, comprising one in each corner, one at each side and the last in the middle. As Plato understood, that's a total of six times seven, which makes 42 - of course.
best wishes,
Merin |
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