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Post subject: Is there 'accident', or...
 Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 09:35 AM
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Jiwa Dancer
Joined: May 29, 2004
Posts: 17
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... or has everything been ‘planned’ before?
Have you ever had experience that made you started to think whether it's meant to happen like that or maybe it could have been avoided (if only this or if only that…)?
I started this topic because I read an article in Subud Voice yesterday. Ibu Siti Sumari said (to a member) that there’s no accident. So a circumstance is planned beforehand, and a man’s free will is about what reaction/decision to be taken in connection with the circumstance(s).
What’s your opinion? Have you been in such circumstance in which however you tried you couldn’t figure out the logic out of it so that afterall you believe that it is meant to happen? |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 09:53 AM
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Newbie
Joined: Aug 19, 2002
Posts: 1
Location: Jakarta
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| Hi Ary, I am one of the person that doesn't belive in accident. Everything that happened is planned beforehand. For me, it seems that God has made all of the things to me and that's what's he will. It is His way to help us and that isn't accident. If we are aware to this situation it could be a blessing to us. One thing that I always remember is that God always give the best for us. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 14, 2004 - 07:38 AM
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Divinely Inspired
Joined: Sep 09, 2004
Posts: 91
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| Titin, just how willing are you to read other people's views on this subject. There must be may who disagree, and some who agree. Yet no-one is writing anything here to dispute, support or dismiss this item. There is something to kearn here, as I see it, and I have had an interesting time tryong to come to grips with tyhestatement which, as I recall it, was "You have as much freedom of choice as a violin in a case. Only your attitude to the sutation can be changed." -It really took some thinking about, but I could not leave it at "God always chooses the best for us", for several reasons. But do you have room in your beliefs to even be interested in what others think on this matter? I hope there is some experienced Subud person who will tel lus of their experiences in ths., abd perhaps their belief-development too. I am not going to yet. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 15, 2004 - 04:01 AM
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Divinely Inspired
Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 93
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Okay - suppose there is some situation where I find myself.
Then you suggest that maybe it is "planned" for me.
But my reaction then is my free will = not planned.
Hmm - but what if my reaction creates a new situation for somebody else - and let's pretend her name is 'Jill'.
Then Jill finds herself in a situation that came from my reaction to my situation - but my reaction was not planned.
So Jill's situation could not be planned.
So which situations are planned, and which ones are not planned?
My opinion is different. I think that nothing is planned IF we look at life from a material perspective. However, I think that SOME things are sometimes planned - but only IF and WHEN we are looking at life from a non-material perspective - which cannot really be discussed - only experienced occasionally.
Cheers,
Merin |
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 15, 2004 - 10:14 AM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 14
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I think the whole thing is far more complicated than could ever be covered in a paragraph or two in a chat room... However, I firmly believe in the concepts of free will and cause and effect. I think that the choices I have made (and occasionally the choices someone else has made) have lead directly to the various situations I find myself in both good and bad. I think that my surrender and quiet and willingness to follow inner guidance rather than reacting blindly and emotionally to a situation allow me to move forward in my life and come to a better place and situation. So I guess the sound byte version of what I believe is that God is with me and before me in every situation whether the situation was constructed by God or by circumstance and my own bad choices. My awareness of, and willingness to listen to, God in those situations - aspects of free will - directly contribute to how the situation will resolve itself and the next set of circumstances I might find myself in. Additionally there is no sense of betrayal in connection to God if something bad were to happen. I know I make bad choices all the time and I'd be a fool if I couldn't see how directly they lead to the situations I find myself in. 
However, I also know that no matter what the situation I find myself in may be, God is always with me and guiding me in a better direction should I manage to actually listen. I kind of wish there were a way to get my spiritual ears checked... and perhaps get some kind of hearing aide as well.  |
Last edited by RosalindC on Oct 15, 2004 - 10:31 AM; edited 1 time in total
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Post subject:
Posted: Oct 15, 2004 - 10:28 AM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 14
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Oh! I should also say that I think there is a difference between something not being an accident and it being specifically planned out before hand. Carelessness doesn't count as accident in my view. If you make a bad decision the outcome is not accident but rather the natural effect to that cause. There may be so many different factors involved that there is very little that you yourself can do to avoid a situation, however it's not like the situation popped spontaneously out of the sky.
As I said this is a topic that can't be covered in a couple of paragraphs, because as much as I believe in free will etc, I do also believe that God is very much involved and present in the course of our lives - particularly if we allow room for that guidance and direction. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 02, 2004 - 12:01 AM
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Directed Jiwa
Joined: Sep 11, 2004
Posts: 35
Location: UK
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| This is a very interesting topic and we assume free will is the ultimate freedom leading us to do whatever we want. But is it though? If we think back to when we were kids I am sure we all fantasised about what we would do if we could do anything - steal loads of money, fly in planes, drop missiles on towns etc etc. Growing up we realise that these things are not possible as we would soon end up in jail. So what happened to free will? Are we living our lives just to pay the bills etc? When we think that life is there to teach us and we are constantly put in situations that we can decide the outcome of things, life actually become more interesting as a right choice quite often leads to some benefit, just like a board game where you get closer to the end. The difference I think is finding what is right for yourself and if you are surrendered to the opportunities that come your way you only have to make the right choices to get what you are asking for. Why is it that when I have a feeling I should do something but dont I ALWAYS end up regretting it. Even with simple things like setting an alarm so I dont forget or buying something in case i dont have time later - when I dont act on these things I forget what I had to do and did not have time to buy the thing I needed. When I do act on these feelings the endings all seem so much better - no stress, other people much happier etc etc. For me this means that free will, especially for people within Subud, means choosing to ignore or carry out these feelings or maybee doing something completely different. Bapak said that when we make mistakes, as people within Subud, the outcome is a much harder lesson than if we were not in Subud, I think mainly because we have been given the opportunity to realise the choices we have to make. Choose to ignore them at your peril! |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 06, 2006 - 11:00 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Posts: 6
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great topic!
free will does exist but only to choose between billions of posible directions and corses of action that is posible to take in each moment. every moment creates bilion of new unexplored posibilitys and so fractaling on.
you are free to choose but not to "create" new.
all posible outcomes are allready "writen down" like on the dvd with multiple endings. you can chose wich ending will you take "this time around" but cant make any new ones.
I had a lot of expiriences in wich I wonderd about existence of free will, this is one of basic formula:
cariing a plate of food from one place to the next when a thought hit me and I see it in my minds eye: the fork is foling of my plate.
I take a look at the plate to make shure all is ok when (sometimes) becose of that I make it fall.
...so I ask my self: if it was an accident why have then I seen it before it hapend like it was "writen"?
to answer this: this precognitive situations come to me mostly if not only when I'm in a state of "oppeness" such of daydreaming, fantazyzing, or am involved with some repetative work, flying on autopilot so to speak. it seems to me that in those cases I can percive next moments ordeal if it is of an emotional impact sort. it leads me to conclude that emotions can "spread" maybe like weawes through space-time.
oouuhhhh... hope I didnt ran off the track there 
in essence I see it as: if I'm on a point A going straight to point B unless something changes in me or my desires and attitudes that led me from A to B it is ease to drow my future trajectory- straight, again, to point C.
the more loving I am easyer it is to change directions and choose my directions more free in accordance with what I feel my soul is saying rather than my memories (established personality).
fear is limiting , love sets you free.
there are no coincidences, it is all of your own design. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 17, 2006 - 11:06 PM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 11, 2006
Posts: 136
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| Well, accidents come from inattention, right? Are you aware of everything that occurs within and outside of yourself at all times? Everything you think and feel, everything you do and why you do it? I think that's called enlightenment. |
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